No Heroes: Inside the FBI's Secret Counter-Terror Force

barnesandnoble.com: Immediately after the Oklahoma City bombing, it appeared that everyone was operating under the assumption that this, like the World Trade Center attack, was a case of foreign terrorism. Once the connection between the Murrah Federal Building's destruction and the Waco standoff was realized, did it appear obvious to you that we were dealing with a case of retaliatory domestic terrorism?

Danny O. Coulson As I was driving from Dallas, Texas, to Oklahoma City on the morning of April 19th, I received a call on my car phone from Rita Braver. She asked me if this was Middle Eastern terrorists. I told her no, it was Bubbas. I remember thinking that it was April 19th, and I had a feeling in my gut that it was the radical right wing, not someone from across the sea. We started collecting evidence and looked at many individuals, but I was pretty sure it would be an individual or a group from the far right.

bn: You mention in No Heroes that you sometimes have doubts that the FBI's investigation uncovered every aspect of the Oklahoma City bombing. Have your opinions at all changed? Do you think Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and Michael Fortier had outside assistance?

DOC: I know that federal prosecutors like to say that they have things all tied up in a neat little package and that McVeigh, Nichols, and Fortier are all there is to the conspiracy. I have to say that I just do not know. There are, of course, connections to individuals connected to the old CSA group that had planned an attack on the same building, and, of course, calls made to Elohim City, Oklahoma, by McVeigh. I know that the FBI found no evidence that others helped in the bombing, but I have to believe that McVeigh received at least some philosophical support from others in the movement. It is very likely that if others were actively involved, McVeigh or Nichols would have talked about them to save themselves an appointment with the executioner.

bn: Give us your overall impression of Timothy McVeigh.

DOC: I have to base my impressions of McVeigh on my interview with his father and my personal contact with him. I think he was basically an inadequate personality who was never successful at anything, except for a brief time as a soldier. He really did not like himself very much and had to find something to hate. It turned out to be the government, and many people died because of that hatred. I found him to be cold and concerned only about his own safety when he was placed under arrest. He has to be a coward. Remember, he had just committed the greatest mass murder in the history of this country and was arrested without a fight by a lone Arkansas state trooper, Charlie Hanger. Not much of a warrior there.

bn: Tell us how you felt when you heard of McVeigh's conviction. Did you feel that the bagging of McVeigh acted somewhat as redemption for the negative press the FBI received over Waco?

DOC: I followed the trial of Mr. McVeigh and was impressed with the fine job that the lawyers did putting on the government's case. I knew that our case was very strong and that the jury would find him guilty. Frankly, there was no sense of elation when I heard the verdict. Remember, I had been in the Murrah building coordinating the evidence recovery with the rescue of the victims. I had been in the nursery and had seen the devastation to those children. Frankly, I thought of those innocent men, women, and children who were killed. That verdict was just, but it did not bring any of the victims back to life.

bn: Is the threat of domestic terrorism on the rise? If so, why?

DOC: I think that there is an increased threat of both domestic and international terrorism facing our country. Remember, we are now in a "war" with Yugoslavia. Terrorism is a tool of a weak country, and we should be very alert to terrorist acts sponsored by the Yugoslavian government. As we get closer to the year 2000, there is a threat that those who believe in the Apocalypse will start their own private war in order to fulfill their own teachings. That is a threat that the FBI and other agencies need to be thinking about and addressing.

bn: From Clarice Starling in The Silence of the Lambs to Mulder and Scully on "The X-Files" -- what is your impression of the way the FBI is fictionalized in movies, on TV, and in novels?

DOC: I really enjoyed The Silence of the Lambs , primarily because there were so many FBI agents in the book and film. Even a couple of HRT operators. Of course, it was not realistic in any way. We don't give agents in the Academy cases to work. They can hardly find their way around the campus, much less catch a serial killer. Big cases are seldom solved by one agent. They are solved by the tireless work of many agents. I have to admit it was a great movie, and I cannot wait to see Mr. Lecter and Agent Starling again. I think that "The X-Files" must have selected FBI agents from the planet Pluto. They are dull, slow, humorless, and entirely boring. Most movies and TV shows depict agents of the FBI as robots with no humor or feeling. In fact, they are outrageous in their humor and have a great passion for their work. They love the thrill of the chase and, believe it or not, they have families just like you.

bn: You mention that in J. Edgar Hoover's FBI, facial hair was not allowed. Today's FBI is more lenient regarding dress codes and other personal appearance issues. In what other ways has the FBI changed since Hoover's regime? You say, and I quote: "This was a different FBI from the one I joined, and I liked it." Why do you find this "new" version more appealing?

DOC: When I joined the FBI, it was a club of white males. Now it represents the nation that we serve. We have minorities at all levels in the FBI. I recently went to a party with an African-American Assistant Director. The FBI is much stronger because it is made up of all types of races and religions -- and now women occupy important positions in our agency. You get to meet some of them in No Heroes .

bn: At what point in your career were you most afraid?

DOC: I have arrested hundreds of armed and very dangerous men and a few women. I was fearful in every one of those situations. I have been most frightened when I had to command men and women in dangerous operations where they had to face the actual danger, and I had only to command. They were my responsibility, and I felt more fear sending them into danger than I did in going myself.

bn: In No Heroes , you discuss many events, not just the Oklahoma City bombing and the Waco incident. For those who have yet to discover your book, what else do you relate? What were your intentions when you began this work?

DOC: In No Heroes , I wanted to catch the full spirit and personalities of those FBI agents who chase your worst nightmares. They hunt what you fear: terrorists, murderers, bombers, and assassins. We take the reader right along with us as we track these monsters. On page one of the book, we take you to the Oklahoma bombing. You will find out about the bombing just as I did; you will get in my car and go along on the adventure. We will make a detour in this trip and take you into the world of the Hostage Rescue Team. Oh yes, we will even take you along as we go into a terrorist compound. Elaine Shannon and I wanted to show the world what it is like to chase monsters.

bn: So, have you caught the author bug? Are you working on any other projects?

DOC: Elaine and I are at work on our next book. We take some real-life events and some pretty terrible villains and weave a fictional story with some of the same characters that you met in No Heroes .

bn: A novel! Sounds excellent. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for your time, Mr. Coulson. Good luck with No Heroes and the new book.

DOC: Thank you.